Did you hear what our fearless leader said about the “Democrat Approach” in Iraq?
Come on, now. Even some of you Republican folks have to admit it’s a preposterous thing to say. I challenge anyone out there to name one democrate who feels that way. Has it really sunk to this? Why would he say such a thing? I’m seriously asking.
i think the point is that there aren’t many democrats speaking up and supporting our position in iraq. he’s calling out the democrats in an election season. if they have “a new direction,” what is it? there is so much defeat in the statements of vocal democrats such as “we can’t win,”….”we need to pull out,” …..”we shouldn’t be there,” …..” we’re creating more terrorists.” well, where are all the statement of democrats who want us to stay? they’re drown out by the anti-war/pull-out democrats….it’s their party line, they have to stick to it much like bush’s belief that we can win.
look at john mccaine, believed in our position and he was kicked out of the democrat party because of his beliefs. bush is just drawing the line in the sand and applying his theory of pull-out to its logical conclusion(from his point of view).
if we pull out, we’ll never win fulfilling the democrat’s prophecy. but what happens when we pull out is up in the air. either things will go good or they won’t. we have to give equal weight to both if we want to be fair. bush isn’t in this to be fair, he really thinks that if we pull out, the terrorists will take over iraq and people are going to be killed. if the democrats don’t believe this, where are their assurances of pure bliss when we leave?
the democrats are screwed in their position because i think they know what would happen if we pulled out but they will not talk about anything other than…”we need a new direction.” well, i’m waiting for it and they’re stalling until after the election once again so they don’t have to discuss it. bush’s statement in it’s simplicity is brilliant politically.
oh, and i’m independent, not republican, i hope that’s okay
I have a loaded question: What constitutes a win? How do we “defeat” the terrorists? I do agree, we’ve kind of gotten ourselves in so deep now that pulling out could cause the new breed of terrorits to spread. I don’t have an answer. My answer would be to have Superman come down and fly really fast in reverse, or grant Cher power to turn back time; we shouldn’t have gone in to begin with.
Now, we’re there for good in some way. But I want to know what Bush means when he says “Win.” If he wants to hear a strategy about living so much, i want to hear what it means to win.
Of course it’s OK, greg. You can be whatever you want, Republican, Indie, whatever.
I was too busy laughing at John Kerry doing his best to hand the election to the republicans. He’s probably still pissed that his wife cost him the presidency.
i don’t think it’s a loaded question, the terrorists have picked their battle. they chose to defeat us in iraq. they have stated that this is their intent. if they can beat us out of iraq it would prove their strength to the world and prove that american might is nothing more than talk.
“Win”? well, my feeling is that we hand iraq over to iraq and allow them to be free showing the neighbors what its like to have a self-appointed government instead of some holy-roller whackjob telling the people what to think.
i can’t understand why the democrats (and their secular beliefs and socalled desire for democracy) want to leave iraq in this state. at the brink of religious zelots circling like buzzards. it’s shameful that american political leaders would rather pull out and take the “chance” that iraq would collapse so they could have “a new direction.” one has to believe that we are creating the terrorists in iraq and not actually the terrorists themselves.we have to believe that the terrorists are freedom fighters wanting to defeat america’s oppression when they are narrowminded religious cookbags. as we’ve seen, they’re killing muslims 10 to one over americans. this is purely to get the american to pull out. put the ugliness of war on our tv’s and the democrats will get their wish of pulling out and the terrorists will get their wish of showing the americans weakness. what it means to “win” doesn’t matter much when what it means to lose amounts to so much more.
show me one democrat who would volunteer one ounce of power for a complete and utter victory against our foes in iraq or anywhere else.. he does not exist..
they would rather see america lose if it means a gain for themselves personally..
because they simply see themselves as more important..
that’s the way it is..
on the other hand, the president and others like him are willing to do and say things that may not be popular but are based on conviction and acceptance of the reality of good and evil, friend and enemy in the real world..
he received all of this same criticism..
he was labeled a dolt and a fool..
he came much closer to losing his reelection bid than bush..
just study it..
Bob – you and I are in the same camp. Kerry is a liability to the Dems, for sure. It’s laughable.
Cracker – You haven’t made any argument. You’ve only spoken with… not even straw men, more like VAPOR men.
I’m not disputing you because, honestly, there is nothing in your comment to dispute. Not one fact, not one name, not one citation is present. Just fluff.
Greg and Michele – There are a lot of good questions from y’all. The desire to get the hell out of Iraq does leave the Sunni and Shi’a fighting tooth and nail. I don’t believe, Greg, that they are fighting to get the U.S. to leave. Their conflict is quite old and will continue.
Still, pulling out in any drastic fashion would leave a human rights nightmare.
Fortunately, pulling out immediately and entirely is only one extreme option. I don’t pretend to know international relations that well, and definitely have zero authority to speak to military matters, but there must be a way to change the scope and context in Iraq. Sticking around for a while, in some capacity, while turning over the no-bid contracts we’ve handed out to development contracts to firms based in Iraq or in the Middle East in general might change our role from persistent occupation to transitional assistance.
I don’t know, though.
The real thing that we can all speak to is the PR side of this. We’re all pieces in the greater of two sides: the government on one hand and the public on the other.
Both the Congress and the White House have failed on the PR side, leaving us with very little morale. We sit around propping up straw men, speaking outside our areas of knowledge, buying spin like it’s going out of style, and bickering about domestic issues that are themselves all vapor.
It’s a giant game of “Hey, look over there!” while two branches of government collectively (if not with total consensus) toss our credibility, Constitution, and financial stability under the bus.
Take the comment by ‘cracker’ as an example of someone buried neck-deep in the slime they bought from the pundits and masters of distraction.
I wrote about three responses to Cracker and then gave up. Then I started to think I must know this person and they’re trying to get me worked up. REVEAL YOURSELF!
I wasn’t sure what to say.
I do agree with the Kerry comment, however. He’s silly. What he said was silly. They’re both silly. We were stuck between a rock and really hard place in 2004.
that’s just it guys..
you don’t get it..
kerry is not a liability to your party..
he IS your party..
that is you..
you are him..
he was your nominee..
you voted for him..
you’d vote for him again..
please do me a favor and continue to fail to understand these simple truths about yourselves..
keep thinking there’s something “wrong with kansas”
assignment – write 3 more responses, quit.. then try to write one that actually has weight..
and no.. you don’t know me..
cracker – you don’t seem to know who ‘we’ are or what ‘we’ do.
you’re literally going from making arguments about vague groups, which can’t be supported or disputed, to making arguments about US – real people – that can EASILY be disputed.
Watch how easily I prove that you’re entirely without basis: No, I wouldn’t vote for Kerry.
Now, I’m sure you’d love to have the balls to tell me that you know more about me than I do, but you’d make yourself look like more of an idiot.
I’ve seen people extrapolate from the specific to the general before (an amateurish mistake) but never from the general to the specific (the mistake of a moron, certainly).
You want weight? Here’s 155 pounds of proof you’re an idiot.
on to my response
kerry is bad news for democrats, so is howard dean, hillary clinton, nancy pelosi(all the big-wigs) there are lots of great democrats out there, i just think they’re weighed down by a few narcissists …..but you know what, i’m getting tired of one side forcing the other to appologise at every turn. it’s like the “non-partisan” attitude everyone is striving for is a huge waste of time and because of it, everything has gone even more partisan but no-one will admit it. nonpartisanship is like the new politically correct. in my humble oppinion, fight it out. get your ideas out there to the public and inform us on what we should do then let us vote. this is what our country is intended to do and this is what iraq’s new government is trying to do.
personally, i don’t care what Kerry said(granted he’s an idiot, but he’s allowed to be stupid, if i were the repubs i get up there and pay for him to speak at my election ralleys. you just can’t get better evidence of why not to elect the other guy than with their own words like this). but he sure is screwing the pootch by trying to call it what it wasn’t, and that’s a flopped joke. plain and simple, he said what he ment and ment what he said until someone called him out. it’s no secret that the democrats dislike the military and the republicans worship our military. and it’s not because they prey on violence. i allow Kerry to dislike the military, that’s fine he spoke before a senate commision in the 70’s stating what he saw in vietnam. what i find odd is his need to appologise in the manner which he chose to do it. an appology in my book needs to have a change in heart to really mean it. what did he do?….”it was a botched joke”..(sure it was)…”i appologise that my words were misinterpreted”…(not the words, but everyone else’s interpretation)?…..”?” i forget the other feeble attempt at it, but these are misdirectional statements, not an appology.
but anyhow, i’m willing to vote for anyone with a plan. but we wait for people like Kerry and we never get one, just them alluding “to a new direction,” it’s like being submerged and trying to swim up but having someone tell you the way out is down without giving you an explaination….it’s purely faith either way, but deep inside, i know air is lighter than water, i’m going up.
Sorry, cracker. The reason why I thought I might know you is I call a lot of people cracker here at my office, it’s a term of endearment. I thought you were kidding, trying to get me riled up (as they tend to do).
To be completely honest, I’m not even sure how to respond to your comments as you haven’t really written anything to respond to. I could take the easy route and call you names but I don’t ever do that, online or in person.
You want me to learn about lincoln? OK. I am assuming you have assumed that I am fond of lincoln. Not sure what he has to do with any of this, really.
I’m not even sure what simple truths I’m not supposed to be realizing. That Kerry is my party? That I am him? What are you asking me not to realize about myself?
From you earlier comment: they would rather see america lose if it means a gain for themselves personally.
You can’t honestly believe that. To answer this, to try and refute your claim, seems like a total waste of time. Perhaps i’m naive and hopeful, but I really don’t think you actually believe that. But if I must, if you do believe this to be true, how can the same not be said for George Bush? How many men and women are losing their lives in Iraq? And why? Because Bush waged a war founded on lies, a war many people, had they been given the truth, wouldn’t have agreed to. Who is benefiting from this war in Iraq? Who is richer because of it? Who benefits every day as more and more people die? Who’s losing? Do you honestly believe that America is winning this war? Honestly?
I respect the fact that you haven’t actually called anyone here names. I won’t ever delete a comment as long as that’s always true. But please think about what you write before doing so. Don’t assume we’re all stupid, that’s something taking place on both sides, a tactic that will cause us more and more harm if we keep it up.
I’m not sure what else I am supposed to say. If you have a question about me or my political views, I’m happy to oblige. But with all due respect, I guess I just don’t know what I’m supposed to be writing and/or answering.
cracker i take issue with your blanket statement on the democrats as being defined by guys like Kerry. oh sure, it has the potential to go that way and it has been going that way.
i know there are a lot of people out there that will hate me for saying this, but the democratic party went downhill with bill clinton. he’s the reason i am now an independent and not a democrat yet still not a republican(but thinking about changing again)! he is the worst thing that has ever happened to that party and so many people are blind to it. people forgive him of his discretions because of a good economy and nothing more.unfortuanely, clintonites include Kerry, Hilary, nancy pelosi, howard dean, and kennedy. these guys are out front and they’re driving the ship without a clear direction but nowhere as well as bill.
there’s a lot of democrats out there that are doing good work for their constituents but we all know there’s a plan for someone to run for president in 08 and jockeying for position is key. stepping on clinton toes is a no-no in the political world of the democrats(in any world).
the party isn’t broken yet, but the bobble-heads are in charge. the democrats need to reach deeper into their bag of potential canidates and stop trying to elect the grease that floats to the top. watch obama, he’s staying clear of this crap and for good reason. he could be the answer the democrats need since mccain was kicked out of the “clintonian five club”.
so a statement that Kerry “is” the party is a bit off based IMHO….at least i have faith that he isn’t the base. i have a lot of friend who are died in the wool democrats and even though they wrong wink wink, i’m still civil.
and michele, to answer questions you posed to cracker…..yes i think we can win, the iraqi people are better off and will be way better off after we finish our job, when those no-bid jobs go to american companies, they pay american workers with american tax money instead of foreign companies and their employees. who’s losing?…i hope the insurgents/terrorists. bush waged a war on incomplete information, only after the fact can we call it wrong and then twist it to lie. just a thought.
I have trouble looking at the big picture sometimes, the idea of calling it a win (eventually). When I think of our losing, I think of individuals, like the families who lost soldiers, the soldiers themselves, or the thousands of Iraqis dying every day because we’re there. When I think of those currently winning, I think of those no-bid jobs you mentioned putting more and more money into those who don’t really need it while our poor grow even poorer. It’s hard for me to look to the future and see an eventual win, for Iraqis or any other nation, when things look so grim right now.
Plus, there’s the whole bit with our worldly reputation, which could take years to rebuild again.
I really liked Clinton but I won’t hold it against you that you did not. My entire family couldn’t stand the guy and I’m not about to hate on them.
“when those no-bid jobs go to american companies, they pay american workers with american tax money instead of foreign companies and their employees. who’s losing?.”
Everyone except those who are winning (and they’re few).
And on the downfall of the Dems, I’d blame a lot of it on Carter, believe it or not (being from Georgia and all).
Clinton was not someone I ever looked up to, especially after reading No One Left to Lie To and hearing Amy Goodman interview him, believe me.
This new Kerry nonsense is a very clear and clean (and convenient!) distraction, and folks are eating it up. Like Greg said, who cares if a douchebag nobody ever liked, who was never anything more than the better of two evils, fucks up in front of a mic? Well, the better question is who SHOULD care, because lots of folks seem to act like it’s some catastrophic blow.
It’s a solid diversion, though, and I’m sure Karl Rove is tickled pink.
It’s no surprise.
The whole Republican Platform is Fear. ‘Vote for us, or YOU WILL DIE’.
They’re like that cunt on fox news who just screams at the camera about how terrorists are coming to kill you.
Kerry was an idiot for saying what he did.
But he was right.
you’re telling me you’d vote for a republican next time if kerry comes up?
I should add—
I call bullshit on any republican , or democrat , who brings supporting troops into any argument
the senate/house and white house have treated troops like crap for decades—and never more so than in the past five years.
forget about whether or not the war was justified, or the fact that defense department seems to be run by inbred monkeys—
key campaign contributers, like halliburton and boeing, get MASSIVE contracts that are clearly 80% profit and 20% product/labor.
meanwhile troops get inferior armor ( children hold BAKE SALES to buy better bulletproof vests for family ? ) , the VA program is being eviscerated, and extremely questionable health practices are commonplace ( massive exposure to depleted uranium is the new (agent)orange )
i could go on.
dems and republicans are both to blame—but its pretty obvious that the republicans are way more invested and taking advantage of this situation.
So forget the whole ‘who started’ the war- look at who’s keeping it going, and keeping it going poorly.
And don’t say that republicans are supporting troops better than dems—because its the republican executive branch that is supplying troops with inferior armor while making inane tactical decisions, and simultaneously building up the greatest need for VA services we’ve seen in 30 years while destroying the frameworking needed to provide it.
“So forget the whole ‘who started’ the war- look at who’s keeping it going, and keeping it going poorly.” i guess you mean the republicans?
“you’re telling me you’d vote for a republican next time if kerry comes up?”
I didn’t want pancakes for breakfast this morning, but that didn’t mean I had to have cereal.
Anyway, I don’t toe any party lines and have always voted for the candidate, not the party.
What I don’t get about the whole pulling-out debate is when exactly folks think tensions began between the folks who are fighting. Not from the troop side, but from the indigenous population side. Folks in Iraq have been at each others’ throats since long before 2003, and even since before England more or less created Iraq. Even if Iraq begins to take care of itself, the fighting will continue.
I don’t believe a quick and dirty pullout would be good, but I also don’t believe we need to stick around indefinitely just because we think we started something. From the beginning the plan was to hand over Iraq to Iraq. If Iraq can’t get it collective shit together (which seems to be the case), I see no reason why we should carry them any longer than absolutely necessary.
Besides, I suspect Iran is playing a huge role in our determination to stay in Iraq. Sort of a “while we’re there, why not?” thing. Perhaps that’s just the conspiracy guy in me…
And cracker… I used to be like you, tooting the horn for the Republican party. I have since learned my lesson. I no longer trust anyone that tows party lines. This isn’t a football match. There are no teams. Get a grip.