I think New School Bob and Ben-Veniste both did a good job of keeping the semantics and histrionics in check. It’s a shame the entire proceeding is so partisan, but not as much of a shame as the fact that the Whitehouse won’t just suck it up and admit that, no matter which individual did what, the whole thing was a government failure and the leadership is, by virtue of being the leadership, to blame. Blame rolls up hill.
I also find it funny that the same people who are yelling that Bush preemptively attacked Iraq are now screaming that he didn’t preemptively attack Al Queda.
I can just see how fat-asses like Ted Kennedy would have reacted if 8 months into Bush’s term he bombed Afgahnistan to destroy Al Queda. I’m sure they all would have supported him.
The failure in this was with the FBI and CIA which was destroyed under Clinton.
Toby, I first tuned in during Kerrey’s questioning, and oddly, I thought just the opposite of you. Aside from the repeated use of “Dr. Clarke”, he sounded all worked up, especially when she tried to call him on not letting her answer the questions that he himself was asking.
I was impressed at her composure. Talk about a pants-peeing moment.
It was interesting that in the opening statement Condi dropped a BOMB on Clark…saying that ending al-Queda was the first policy that GWB ever put into place. While I think blame goes to Bush for some mis-steps, the bulk of the blame goes to our politicians who prop up bullshit dictators and governments who spark so much rage amongst their people that they not only go after the figureheads…they go after the countries whosupposedly prop them up. Anyone else find it interesting that they have not mentioned the Saudi link once? Gee could it be the 50 million they (Saudis) have pumped into lobbying and pr specifically to cover their asses! For the last 2 years the Saudis have been on Operation Cover Our Nuts and we all sit there and let it happen…and I hate to tell you the King and the family are the perfect example of proping up a govt.
I do not blame Bill Clinton…actually he may have helped to defray the situation with his peace efforts in the middle east…but I do blame him for not “unleashing hell” on Osama as soon as our embassasies were bombed in Africa. He knew who did it and he should have just hunted him down with every piece of intellegence they had at the time…and please do not mention the “almost got him” comment because it has been proven that this statement was proven to be bullshit (and I am too lazy to go find the article).
Oh, it’s certainly complicated. That’s why I’m so bothered by the administration wanting to shift blame to one or another individuals. While I know that the point of the committee is to do just that, I wish each testimonial were prefaced with an admission that it was a governmental failure that could have, in an ideal world, been prevented. Then people could go on to dodge and duck and point and cuss. Currently, the modus operandi seems to be to detach all humanity and humility from the process and from the events in order to create a fog into which individuals may blend.
Clinton launched missiles and got into lots of trouble for it. In hindsight, it was the right course of action and would be better if only the offensive had been a success. Bush will always have a hard time justifying his war. He wouldn’t have had such a hard time – at this point especially – justifying another offensive against Al Queda.
I think the current administration needs to admit that they probably had their priorities wrong (and still do). I also think the previous administration should have been under closer scrutiny during this investigation. There is no clean slate when the Whitehouse is turned over, no matter how many partisan hirings and firings and appointments occur. While pols are considering their careers – which do have clear stages and terms – the rest of the country is going about its daily business. We have to look at the decades leading up to the attacks. Trying to blame one person or one side is just silly. It’s so near-sighted and so wrong.
Still, the months leading up to the specific attack are immensely more relevant than years (millenia, actually) of conflict and hatred and mistakes.
The productive result might very well be to point out the failure of the current administration to keep priorities in order. No matter how it’s framed, there was a clear prejudice and plan against Iraq and towards a war from the get-go and that drive is possibly what lead to other considerations (and clear warnings) being cast aside.
To err is human. To dodge is politics. To accept responsibility for at least the mistakes you have made is respectable.
wow, i had that post open for a while… forgot about it, haha.
missy—i didn’t mean that kerrey was polite, by any means. but be honest – she was dodging and she was filibustering. i would, too. she was well-composed and well-spoken. she was also a genius orator. there is a reason that most folks who have a masters in Rhetoric or Rhetorical Studies go on to get law degrees or a PhD in Political Science. it’s inherent. and i quite enjoyed their taking control of their ten minutes… it was definitely an interesting morning on the AM dial!
It would be VERY interesting to see how she would fare as President. I know a great deal of it has to do with your advisors, and I’m very curious who she might pick.
Toby your point is right on…just remember that this is an election year so everything is under a microscope. The only portion of this hearing that was completely wrong was Richard Clark…he is the epitome of sour grapes and it makes me so mad that we have allowed him this bully pulpit. He is pissed because he is not the number 4 at Homeland Security and that is it…this is not about doing the right thing (because I would be willing to bet he was one of those who convinced Clinton to hold off launching a full out offensive).
The only portion of the hearings that has baffled me is the missing Saudi link (and I have watched the bulk of them right here in my office). We have propped up a dictator who now has us by the nuts because our addiction to oil is like a junkie jonesing for heroin…funny that the OPEC nations see it as okay to decide to limit production to raise prices (if we did the same…limiting the dollars we spend on foreign aid to them…you have to wonder what they would say).
Bush had all the warning he needed to make a decsion to react before 9/11!!! what i find intresting is his reaction after 9/11.he used 9/11 to his advantage to lie to the american people(and we ate it up like the scared weak pilgrams we are) and attack Iraq and gian control of its oil and to close the gap of non globelization contries,and the “new map” http://www.nwc.navy.mil/newrulesets/ThePentagonsNewMap.htm ..
which this was all orcastrated by the Bilderbreg group ( Group of the most powerfull people in the world that meet once a year but no one knows what they talk about)alot conspricy theroys surounding this group! http://www.bilderberg.org/
so all you pilgrams beware that might be coming for you to if you read this!!
James sorry but I disagree…vehemently. If you want to point the blame at someone, maybe we should blame the educational system that fostered Osama (US…I think) or the fact that we supplied weapons to the mujadeen (spelling?) for their fight against the Soviets or maybe our belief that we need to “convert” everyone to our system of beliefs or maybe our reliance on foreign oil or the Saudis. BUT there is one thing that pisses me off…Monday morning quarterbacks who second guess after a tragedy. We have all been playing nice but saying that Bush used 9/11 for political gain (DURING the event…not counting that hideous ad)…so wrong. Leaders are born in times of national tragedy and even the American people agreed with this as the President’s approval ratings hovered north of 80% for about 6 months after the tragedy…so while he did benefit he did not exploit.
Are the black helecopters going to come and get me now?
And Mihow to answer the question about the elections…it is all about what happens during two events…the olympics and coming out of the conventions. If there are no attacks in Greece and Bush seems to have put an end to the uprisings in Iraq…this could be over before it really starts…but I am not putting any money on this.
Wildcards…Stern (does he really start messing with the Prez over indecency?), Osama (is he alive?), Nader (maybe…but doubtful) and about 5-10% of the voting public who will wait until the World Series is over to make their decision…these are the people each party want badly.
LoL toby you might be right!! i just look outside the box and not the media and goverment that is trying to shove this tripe down evryone throat!!its my prospective of the situation i have traveled the world and found that americans only seem to believe what is fed to them through media fiasco like today!!
I’m excited to see Jon Stewart tonight. It’s the little things you see. I actually look forward to staying up past my bedtime to hear his rants.
I do think this hurts the Republican party a bit. But you’re right Bsmith, we’re nowhere near ready to make any predictions. There are way too many things which will change first.
So B, you agree as well that youre oh so terrific leader dooped 80% of the poulation!! and in case you havent noticed USA doesnt care about other countrys educational systems when really we cant even ours up to snuff! american forgien policy is “whats in it for us!! ” Rawanda,Afganistan,Palistin,all countries that have had a tremdous atrocityies and we stand by and whatch from the sidelines!But give us oil or preacious meatals and we are there like flys on shit!
I think New School Bob and Ben-Veniste both did a good job of keeping the semantics and histrionics in check. It’s a shame the entire proceeding is so partisan, but not as much of a shame as the fact that the Whitehouse won’t just suck it up and admit that, no matter which individual did what, the whole thing was a government failure and the leadership is, by virtue of being the leadership, to blame. Blame rolls up hill.
8 years of nothing vs. 8 months.
I also find it funny that the same people who are yelling that Bush preemptively attacked Iraq are now screaming that he didn’t preemptively attack Al Queda.
I can just see how fat-asses like Ted Kennedy would have reacted if 8 months into Bush’s term he bombed Afgahnistan to destroy Al Queda. I’m sure they all would have supported him.
The failure in this was with the FBI and CIA which was destroyed under Clinton.
Toby, I first tuned in during Kerrey’s questioning, and oddly, I thought just the opposite of you. Aside from the repeated use of “Dr. Clarke”, he sounded all worked up, especially when she tried to call him on not letting her answer the questions that he himself was asking.
I was impressed at her composure. Talk about a pants-peeing moment.
It was interesting that in the opening statement Condi dropped a BOMB on Clark…saying that ending al-Queda was the first policy that GWB ever put into place. While I think blame goes to Bush for some mis-steps, the bulk of the blame goes to our politicians who prop up bullshit dictators and governments who spark so much rage amongst their people that they not only go after the figureheads…they go after the countries whosupposedly prop them up. Anyone else find it interesting that they have not mentioned the Saudi link once? Gee could it be the 50 million they (Saudis) have pumped into lobbying and pr specifically to cover their asses! For the last 2 years the Saudis have been on Operation Cover Our Nuts and we all sit there and let it happen…and I hate to tell you the King and the family are the perfect example of proping up a govt.
I do not blame Bill Clinton…actually he may have helped to defray the situation with his peace efforts in the middle east…but I do blame him for not “unleashing hell” on Osama as soon as our embassasies were bombed in Africa. He knew who did it and he should have just hunted him down with every piece of intellegence they had at the time…and please do not mention the “almost got him” comment because it has been proven that this statement was proven to be bullshit (and I am too lazy to go find the article).
Oh, it’s certainly complicated. That’s why I’m so bothered by the administration wanting to shift blame to one or another individuals. While I know that the point of the committee is to do just that, I wish each testimonial were prefaced with an admission that it was a governmental failure that could have, in an ideal world, been prevented. Then people could go on to dodge and duck and point and cuss. Currently, the modus operandi seems to be to detach all humanity and humility from the process and from the events in order to create a fog into which individuals may blend.
Clinton launched missiles and got into lots of trouble for it. In hindsight, it was the right course of action and would be better if only the offensive had been a success. Bush will always have a hard time justifying his war. He wouldn’t have had such a hard time – at this point especially – justifying another offensive against Al Queda.
I think the current administration needs to admit that they probably had their priorities wrong (and still do). I also think the previous administration should have been under closer scrutiny during this investigation. There is no clean slate when the Whitehouse is turned over, no matter how many partisan hirings and firings and appointments occur. While pols are considering their careers – which do have clear stages and terms – the rest of the country is going about its daily business. We have to look at the decades leading up to the attacks. Trying to blame one person or one side is just silly. It’s so near-sighted and so wrong.
Still, the months leading up to the specific attack are immensely more relevant than years (millenia, actually) of conflict and hatred and mistakes.
The productive result might very well be to point out the failure of the current administration to keep priorities in order. No matter how it’s framed, there was a clear prejudice and plan against Iraq and towards a war from the get-go and that drive is possibly what lead to other considerations (and clear warnings) being cast aside.
To err is human. To dodge is politics. To accept responsibility for at least the mistakes you have made is respectable.
wow, i had that post open for a while… forgot about it, haha.
missy—i didn’t mean that kerrey was polite, by any means. but be honest – she was dodging and she was filibustering. i would, too. she was well-composed and well-spoken. she was also a genius orator. there is a reason that most folks who have a masters in Rhetoric or Rhetorical Studies go on to get law degrees or a PhD in Political Science. it’s inherent. and i quite enjoyed their taking control of their ten minutes… it was definitely an interesting morning on the AM dial!
It’s like watching “GOP eye for the straight Guy” for me. I’m sorry.. I’m not even sure what GOP is.
Condi Rice for President!
It would be VERY interesting to see how she would fare as President. I know a great deal of it has to do with your advisors, and I’m very curious who she might pick.
Her slogan must not be: Rice-a-roni, the San Francisco treat.
Are you stoned or something today, Lana? Tell the truth.
Toby your point is right on…just remember that this is an election year so everything is under a microscope. The only portion of this hearing that was completely wrong was Richard Clark…he is the epitome of sour grapes and it makes me so mad that we have allowed him this bully pulpit. He is pissed because he is not the number 4 at Homeland Security and that is it…this is not about doing the right thing (because I would be willing to bet he was one of those who convinced Clinton to hold off launching a full out offensive).
The only portion of the hearings that has baffled me is the missing Saudi link (and I have watched the bulk of them right here in my office). We have propped up a dictator who now has us by the nuts because our addiction to oil is like a junkie jonesing for heroin…funny that the OPEC nations see it as okay to decide to limit production to raise prices (if we did the same…limiting the dollars we spend on foreign aid to them…you have to wonder what they would say).
In my cube at the government?? Nooooooo. I did eat something that the cafeteria purpoted as “Scottish stew” at lunch.
Bush had all the warning he needed to make a decsion to react before 9/11!!! what i find intresting is his reaction after 9/11.he used 9/11 to his advantage to lie to the american people(and we ate it up like the scared weak pilgrams we are) and attack Iraq and gian control of its oil and to close the gap of non globelization contries,and the “new map” http://www.nwc.navy.mil/newrulesets/ThePentagonsNewMap.htm ..
which this was all orcastrated by the Bilderbreg group ( Group of the most powerfull people in the world that meet once a year but no one knows what they talk about)alot conspricy theroys surounding this group! http://www.bilderberg.org/
so all you pilgrams beware that might be coming for you to if you read this!!
i think your tin foil hat fell off just now…
James is AKA Robert Ludlum – building interest for his next book.
James sorry but I disagree…vehemently. If you want to point the blame at someone, maybe we should blame the educational system that fostered Osama (US…I think) or the fact that we supplied weapons to the mujadeen (spelling?) for their fight against the Soviets or maybe our belief that we need to “convert” everyone to our system of beliefs or maybe our reliance on foreign oil or the Saudis. BUT there is one thing that pisses me off…Monday morning quarterbacks who second guess after a tragedy. We have all been playing nice but saying that Bush used 9/11 for political gain (DURING the event…not counting that hideous ad)…so wrong. Leaders are born in times of national tragedy and even the American people agreed with this as the President’s approval ratings hovered north of 80% for about 6 months after the tragedy…so while he did benefit he did not exploit.
Are the black helecopters going to come and get me now?
And Mihow to answer the question about the elections…it is all about what happens during two events…the olympics and coming out of the conventions. If there are no attacks in Greece and Bush seems to have put an end to the uprisings in Iraq…this could be over before it really starts…but I am not putting any money on this.
Wildcards…Stern (does he really start messing with the Prez over indecency?), Osama (is he alive?), Nader (maybe…but doubtful) and about 5-10% of the voting public who will wait until the World Series is over to make their decision…these are the people each party want badly.
B – it’s obvious
– so PAINFULLY obvious –that you come from a long line of Freemasons and Skull and Bones.Predictions in the House and Senate…both stay Republican and Tom Daschle is the only incumbent to lose…
TobyJoe…Actually the product of two Irish Catholic immigrants…scary huh? They think so…I guess I could be called the Black Sheep.
Just a socially liberal Republican who is praying that this election is a scare to those right of me to stop the shit and start governing…
LoL toby you might be right!! i just look outside the box and not the media and goverment that is trying to shove this tripe down evryone throat!!its my prospective of the situation i have traveled the world and found that americans only seem to believe what is fed to them through media fiasco like today!!
I’m excited to see Jon Stewart tonight. It’s the little things you see. I actually look forward to staying up past my bedtime to hear his rants.
I do think this hurts the Republican party a bit. But you’re right Bsmith, we’re nowhere near ready to make any predictions. There are way too many things which will change first.
So B, you agree as well that youre oh so terrific leader dooped 80% of the poulation!! and in case you havent noticed USA doesnt care about other countrys educational systems when really we cant even ours up to snuff! american forgien policy is “whats in it for us!! ” Rawanda,Afganistan,Palistin,all countries that have had a tremdous atrocityies and we stand by and whatch from the sidelines!But give us oil or preacious meatals and we are there like flys on shit!
man, can’t wait to see the google search strings this week…
“palistin meatals Jon Stewart tinfoil hat”
LOL yeah my spelling sucks!!deal with it!
James are you in one of my classes? You seem familiar.
LOL mihow if i was in youre class i would run spell check for you!! cause youre a sweetie!